Batters61 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 A quick question regarding the RTP and how its worked out. Will had his fantastic 68k win the other week. I assume that the RTP is worked out across all players of a any given game? If so, assuming the game had an RTP of 98% does that mean that the rest of the players would need to lose 69.5k to make up for it? Is that too simplistic? I just wondered how the maths are worked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batters61 Posted November 1, 2021 Author Share Posted November 1, 2021 6 minutes ago, Batters61 said: A quick question regarding the RTP and how its worked out. Will had his fantastic 68k win the other week. I assume that the RTP is worked out across all players of a any given game? If so, assuming the game had an RTP of 98% does that mean that the rest of the players would need to lose 69.5k to make up for it? Is that too simplistic? I just wondered how the maths are worked out. So I just read the article about RTP on the forum. It says "If a slot has an RTP of 95%, you then know that the slot should keep the remaining 5%. This means if you were to play a slot for an infinite amount of time, you could expect to be paid 95% of your money back" Surely, and I am being a pedant here, if you played for an infinite amount of time the house edge will gobble up all your money, albeit in 5% splices. I do understand that house edge pays for the casino and the entertainment derived from it. When I go to Vegas or even the local casino I know that the money I lose pays for the place to exist and that is the fee for the entertainment I get form gambling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hideous Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 The games aren't compensated. The RTP is worked out before any real money spins are taken, and calculated from the maths inherent to the game. If I had a bag with 100 balls in, and only 1 was red, the chances of me picking out the red ball is 1 in 100. It doesn't matter how many times people have picked balls out of the bag before me, the odds are always 1 in 100 (as long as the balls are replaced after every go). As such, every single spin is like plunging your hand into a giant bag of balls. But we are talking about millions of balls here, or even billions of balls. We can know what the chances are of you picking any ball out, and as such we can know from this the RTP. Everyone is simultaneously picking a random ball from the same bag, every spin. And it's the same bag every time with the same set of balls. It doesn't matter if I win, the chances of me getting that Helios Fury on my very next buy are exactly the same as what they were with the first buy. Its provably fair, both mathematically and statistically; and what has happened in the past or may happen in the future will have no real world bearing upon your result. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hideous Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, Batters61 said: So I just read the article about RTP on the forum. It says "If a slot has an RTP of 95%, you then know that the slot should keep the remaining 5%. This means if you were to play a slot for an infinite amount of time, you could expect to be paid 95% of your money back" Surely, and I am being a pedant here, if you played for an infinite amount of time the house edge will gobble up all your money, albeit in 5% splices. I do understand that house edge pays for the casino and the entertainment derived from it. When I go to Vegas or even the local casino I know that the money I lose pays for the place to exist and that is the fee for the entertainment I get form gambling. Yes you are correct. If you start with a finite amount of money, then eventually that 5% will catch up with you. Chloes article should be understood that you should expect 95% of your wagered monies to be returned to you. Your wagered monies will always be equal or more than your available balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batters61 Posted November 1, 2021 Author Share Posted November 1, 2021 Cheers Will, I wasn't being arsey, its something that has interested me for a while. I get your red ball analogy, perhaps when I play slots they have just taken the red ball away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hideous Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 There are a lot of balls mate. Also, whilst this is a perfectly valid mathematical explanation, it is simplified. There might be one ball in there that has a value of 100x, but that could be an average value - with a distribution that ranged from 0 to 50,000. So you could think that when you picked out that ball you then got to pick another ball from another bag, and so on - through dimensions. For very complicated games, or games with features such as "unlimited multipliers" things really can be unlimited - however the odds can always be calculated back to the original spin cost. You only have to look at how many dead spins you get to realise quite how many balls there are. Most of the balls are duds. Its fascinating, but I'm very aware that most of us have very few truly random interactions day to day. The world imposes order on us, and as such we search for it in everything we encounter. Where slots are concerned - it's all random and it's all luck 😊 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notdirty Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 (edited) A lot of gamblers interpret RTP wrong. It has nothing to do with your account balance or deposits and everything to do with the money staked/bet/played. Example for demonstration purpose - imagine a game with exactly 95% RTP all of the time. £100 starting balance = £100 You do 100 spins at £1 total staked in those 100 spins = £100 Total returned = £95 casino has won £5 which is 5% of £100 Your balance is now £95 You another 100 spins at £1 total staked in the 200 spins = £200 Your balance is now £90 Casino has won £10 which is 5% of £200 It is the churn. It is why roulette in a live casino has 97.3%(2.7% house advantage)RTP but a casino will expect the hold percentage (the percentage of the actual buyins/deposits that the casino will win) to be between 14% - 17% people continue playing, you might have only bought in for £100 but you stake much more then that. Stake £100 get back £97.30(on average/large sample size etcetc) then you stake that £97.30 and get back £94.67, stake that £94.67 and get back £92.15, stake that £92.15 and get back £89.63, stale that £89.63 and get back 87.21……. Continue until you have £0 The casino can still say, and quite rightly and truthfully so, that they paid out 97.3%. They paid out 97.3% of the money staked but to the player it will seem like they lost 100% of their money. Edited November 2, 2021 by Notdirty 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsl2000 Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 5 hours ago, Notdirty said: A lot of gamblers interpret RTP wrong. It has nothing to do with your account balance or deposits and everything to do with the money staked/bet/played. Example for demonstration purpose - imagine a game with exactly 95% RTP all of the time. £100 starting balance = £100 You do 100 spins at £1 total staked in those 100 spins = £100 Total returned = £95 casino has won £5 which is 5% of £100 Your balance is now £95 You another 100 spins at £1 total staked in the 200 spins = £200 Your balance is now £90 Casino has won £10 which is 5% of £200 It is the churn. It is why roulette in a live casino has 97.3%(2.7% house advantage)RTP but a casino will expect the hold percentage (the percentage of the actual buyins/deposits that the casino will win) to be between 14% - 17% people continue playing, you might have only bought in for £100 but you stake much more then that. Stake £100 get back £97.30(on average/large sample size etcetc) then you stake that £97.30 and get back £94.67, stake that £94.67 and get back £92.15, stake that £92.15 and get back £89.63, stale that £89.63 and get back 87.21……. Continue until you have £0 The casino can still say, and quite rightly and truthfully so, that they paid out 97.3%. They paid out 97.3% of the money staked but to the player it will seem like they lost 100% of their money. Good explaination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batters61 Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 19 hours ago, Notdirty said: A lot of gamblers interpret RTP wrong. It has nothing to do with your account balance or deposits and everything to do with the money staked/bet/played. Example for demonstration purpose - imagine a game with exactly 95% RTP all of the time. £100 starting balance = £100 You do 100 spins at £1 total staked in those 100 spins = £100 Total returned = £95 casino has won £5 which is 5% of £100 Your balance is now £95 You another 100 spins at £1 total staked in the 200 spins = £200 Your balance is now £90 Casino has won £10 which is 5% of £200 It is the churn. It is why roulette in a live casino has 97.3%(2.7% house advantage)RTP but a casino will expect the hold percentage (the percentage of the actual buyins/deposits that the casino will win) to be between 14% - 17% people continue playing, you might have only bought in for £100 but you stake much more then that. Stake £100 get back £97.30(on average/large sample size etcetc) then you stake that £97.30 and get back £94.67, stake that £94.67 and get back £92.15, stake that £92.15 and get back £89.63, stale that £89.63 and get back 87.21……. Continue until you have £0 The casino can still say, and quite rightly and truthfully so, that they paid out 97.3%. They paid out 97.3% of the money staked but to the player it will seem like they lost 100% of their money. The Casino will eventually get every penny you have if you play long enough. There is an entertainment factor that is slightly intangible, if you perceive value from your time playing then that is worth something. My original question was around the maths of how it works, Wills explanation was quite good. I am little bit geeky with the maths. Using Wills analogy, when a game is published there seems to be a huge pot full of balls that the designer knows when all are played will return 95%, some will return 0x, some 25000x, when you hit the button you randomly get a ball from the bucket with a predetermined value, most are 0x, some are 0.5x etc etc. That's how you can get bonus after bonus, or like me play 300-400 spins often without even a tease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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